Wheelworks.co.nz, Handbuilt wheels by Tristan Thomas

Published by Tristan on 17 Jun 2009 at 08:36 pm

Tech info on the KinLin range of rims

25 Comments Tech

25 Responses to “Tech info on the KinLin range of rims”

1. Jonas on 04 Jul 2009 at 3:29 am #

   Thanks for the excellent info!

   A question about the durability/strength of the Kinlin rims:
   Do you any suggestions as to the maximum recommended rider weight for a 20/24 spoke wheelset using XR200 and XR270?
   For that matter, also maximum rider weight for say, a 16/20 set using the XR300 rim?
   - Assuming CX-RAY or similar spokes.
   I know it isn’t an exact science, but would be great to have a general guideline in this regard…

   thx :)

2. Tristan on 06 Jul 2009 at 11:15 am #

   Hi Jonas

   I think you might be approaching this from the wrong angle: The spoke count goes hand-in-hand with the choice of hub and choice of spoke and these two are determined by what the wheels are designed to be used for.

   It’s not an exact science but instead a balancing act of tradeoffs. For example a heavier rider generally would not use CX-Rays but a stiffer spoke, or would need to have more spokes in the wheel, or you need to use a hub which will increase the spoke’s bracing angle.

   The choice of hub, especially front hub, applies as this has a huge bearing on the stiffness of the wheel.

   Also, some riders require more lateral stiffness than others depending on their riding style.

   My suggestion would be to think about what wheelset qualities you’re looking for, your riding style and weight, and your budget…Then talk with a wheelbuilder, either myself or someone else, about what combinations of components will be the best way of achieving the qualities you’re looking for.

3. Jonas on 06 Jul 2009 at 7:33 pm #

   Yes I see what you mean. I am my own wheelbuilder though, and I like to try out different builds, and see what works – as a bit of a hobby.
   I also build wheels for friends and family members, so it is not a question of building just one set of wheels for myself.

   My overall goal is usually lowest possible weight (within a budget), but still with decent stiffness and strength. So I am always trying to get a general feeling for which kind of build-up would be ok, with certain rim and spokes etc. In this regard your website has been a great inspiration, with some very interesting builds :)

   I understand if you can’t give a definite answer, but assuming a 70 kg rider that is easy on wheels in general, what do you think of the following two builds:

   1. The aero light wheelset
   Hubs: Dura Ace 7700 (found a brand new “aero” holed pair cheap)
   Rim: XR-300 16/20h
   Spokes: CX-RAY. x1 front and x2 both sides rear.
   Nipples: Brass

   2. The climbing super light wheelset
   Hubs: Tune 70/180
   Rim: XR-200 24/28h
   Spokes: CX-RAY. x1 front and x2 rear NDS + x1 DS heads in.
   Nipples: Aluminium

   I am feeling pretty good about the seconf build, but don’t know if the XR-300 are quite strong enough for the 16/20 combo. Perhaps they need stronger spokes than the CX-RAYs?
   Since I already have the DA hubs, I am kind of locked in to finding suitable rims to go with them :)

   Would really appreciate your input.
   Thanks,

4. Tristan on 07 Jul 2009 at 5:27 pm #

   Hi Jonas

   I don’t think you’ll find the 16/20 wheels to be stiff enough, and certainly not with CX-Rays. I’d suggest finding a very stiff carbon rim for these but if you’re determined to use the Kinlin rims then I’d suggest a very stiff spoke.

   Wheelset #2 looks fine – I’m 4kg heavier than you and use a similar wheelset with no problems. 1x on the front wheel is a bit unusual but no reason it can’t be done – I’d suggest all elbows out to increase stiffness.

   If you’re using CX-Rays make sure you get the Sapim SILS nipples to go with them.

5. Hansen on 03 Nov 2009 at 12:56 am #

   Thanks for the tech info. Have you ever used the XR240? I’m assuming it uses a different alloy since its 24 mm deep but slightly heavier than the XR270. BTW, notice any cracks around the nipple holes with Kinlins yet? No eyelets always worries me… =)

   -Hansen

6. Tristan on 03 Nov 2009 at 7:21 am #

   Hi Hansen

   I have not used the XR-240…there doesn’t seem to be a need when the XR-270 is super strong and a bit lighter. The XR-240 is a few dollars cheaper so I’d guess that it’s a slightly different alloy, but again I have not used them so I can’t confirm this.

   I have not heard of a single problem with cracks at the nipple on the XR-270. My experience is that eyeletted rims tend to crack more than non-eyeletted….have you read my article on this?

   http://wheelworks.co.nz/blog/eyeletted-vs-non-eyletted-rims/

7. Hansen on 05 Nov 2009 at 3:03 am #

   Thanks Tristan! Nice article. I was wondering if maybe the XR 240 was using a thicker extrusion and if that meant that the 270′s had thinner walls. I guess the better alloy balances that out. Judging from your experience I guess a 28 or 32 spoke wheel with XR 270′s should be pretty bombproof for an avid road rider. =)

   -HS

8. Peter on 12 Nov 2009 at 12:45 pm #

   Doesn’t KinLin have a website?

9. Tristan on 12 Nov 2009 at 1:54 pm #

   Hi Peter – like a lot of Chinese companies who primarily sell as OEM to other manufactures I don’t think Kinlin have a ‘consumer’ website.

10. Hansen on 15 Nov 2009 at 4:12 pm #

    Hello again Tristan,

    Question: Since you mentioned that the Kinlins have a pinned joint, does that mean there’s a sleeve too? I’ve noticed in building certain rims with sleeves (DT, Velocity) that if the two holes adjacent to that joint go through that sleeve it moves the nipple deeper into the rim (increasing ERD effectively), thus less spoke threads are engaged in those nipples compared to the other spokes. Have you noticed this and would one use a spoke length 1-2 mm longer for those holes?

    Thanks,
    Hansen

11. Tristan on 15 Nov 2009 at 8:01 pm #

    Hi Hansen

    Yes, the rims are sleeved, or “pinned” as it’s also called.

    As you say sometimes the spoke holes pass through the sleeve which does alter the ERD. The worst rims for this seem to be Velocity.

    The Kinlin’s don’t seem to be too affected by this; possibly the sleeve does not drop down to the nipple bed because of the deeper rim section?

    If the pin was thick enough to substantially alter the spoke length then I don’t see any problem putting longer spokes in at the joint….you’d have to be careful that you didn’t add too much though.

12. Andreas on 19 Nov 2009 at 12:05 am #

    Hi Tristan

    Some KinLin rims cause a strong wobble when braking due to an error occurred during machining the sidewalls.
    I had this problem and some other bikers complained about that, too.
    Is there a way to tell which rims are affected?

    Thanks in advance
    Andreas

13. Tristan on 19 Nov 2009 at 12:13 am #

    Hi Andreas

    This is a problem with the Kinlin rims but it seems to only be with 1-2% of the rims. The XR-270 seems to be the least likely to have this problem, the XR-300 and XR-200 have had a few more problems in my experience. I have not found a way of telling which rims are affected without building them into wheels – it’s a real pain in the arse but in most cases I notice the problem before the wheel leaves the workshop so it can be replaced.

    I’ve tried a few ways of measuring the rims before building them to check if there will be any problems but because the rims sidewalls are not perpendicular to each other (all rims have a slight angle to assist the brake pads) I’ve found it impossible to check.

14. John Ciccone on 04 Dec 2009 at 5:11 am #

    question please why would kinlin rim be used over a mavic open pro, the mavic seem light enought @ 445 or so, and the kinlin seem to have some issues with quality …i am just asking as I want to build some wheels.

15. Tristan on 04 Dec 2009 at 9:51 am #

    Hi John

    The Open Pro is a great rim and works really well in some instances. The XR-270 and the Open Pro are about the same weight however the XR-270 is MUCH stiffer and can be built as, say, a 20h front wheel where the Open Pro would need to be a 28h to have the same stiffness….as a result there is a weight difference (8x 7g) plus aero and aesthetic benefits.

    For a classic pair of training wheels the Open Pro is hard to beat but like any product it is not perfect and does suffer from some of it’s own quality issues.

    I think whichever rim you choose should be based around what you’re wanting the wheel to be used for.

    Cheers, Tristan

16. Dominique on 28 Dec 2009 at 7:09 pm #

    Hi Tristan.

    Thanks for all this technical info about the Kinlins.

    I must say I’m confused with your opinion about the cx-ray spokes not being stiff (enough).

    I’m shopping for a pair a wheels to go on a titanium bike next spring. I’m 185-195 lbs (depends on when in the season), I like to climb out of the saddle and am usually chasing any escapees trying to get away from the pack too early on Sunday mornings. I rode a pair of ultegra/OP (32×3 f&r) forever and more recently Reynolds Alta Race (aero 31mm 20/24 dt revolution). When pushing at speeds above 40km/h, the Reynolds give me a few more km/h but I feel the OP’s tighter when cornering. I’m looking for lighter than the OP’s and as little flex as possible.

    Untill now, I was tempted by ligero 27mm alloy clincher wheels, as they are light and supposedly stiff due to the wider distance between hub flanges. I think they’re built with kinlin 270 (hidden nipples) and cx-rays (20r front / 24rear 2:1 ratio ).

    My question is this : given that cx-rays are usually charged a huge extra $ when having a wheel built with them, over let’s say DTcomp or even Aerolite, why aren’t they stiffer ? Or is it that they’re not stiff and therefore they stretch instead of breaking up ?

    Given my size and the way I intend to ride, what spokes would you advise ?

    Thanks alot.

17. Tristan on 28 Dec 2009 at 7:50 pm #

    Hi Dominique

    A spoke’s stiffness is directly proportional to it’s weight: the heavier it is the less it will stretch and the stiffer the wheel will be. As a result the Aerolite and CX-Ray spokes are the same stiffness as Revolution spokes (since they’re the same weight) and not as stiff as the heavier Competition or Champion.

    What you’re paying for with CX-Rays and Aerolites is the extra manufacturing process needed to turn a round spoke into a bladed one.

    Other factors which effect the wheel’s stiffness:
    -the hub’s flange dimensions
    -the rim’s stiffness
    -the number of spokes
    -the lacing pattern (which has a small affect due to changes in spoke length)

    You have to look at the wheel as a complete package rather than focusing just on what type of spoke is needed and then decide on what rim is needed, etc. Troy at Ligero is a great guy and understands wheels very well – if you’re looking at purchasing from him then give him and ring to discuss – he knows what works with his hubs and rims. AFAIK he uses CX-Rays spokes up to 200lbs and then uses a stiffer spoke on the driveside of the wheel for heavier riders.

    As for the vague feeling of the Reynolds I’d imagine most of what you’re feeling is front wheel flex. Ligero (and myself) use the Alchemy ELF hub which builds into a much stiffer wheel because of the wide hub flanges and generally has similar stiffness to a wheel with 4 more spokes. The Alta Race rims are quite porky and should build up into a reasonably stiff wheelset although I have not tested a pair in the jig.

18. Dominique on 28 Dec 2009 at 9:04 pm #

    Wow ! Thanks for the quick reply.

    Actually DT Comp’s are used on the rear DS of the Reynolds, I noticed that they are bigger than the NDS Revolutions. Maybe I should sacrifice a few grams and go with that configuration on kinlin rims. I went thru your portfolio and saw a front xr-270/rear xr-300 combo. I suppose the rear 300 would also be advisable for me ?

    According to you, wich would be stiffer ?

    a) xr-270 with dt comp’s on DS / cx-rays NDS

    or

    b) xr-300 with cx-rays on both sides ?

    Wheel weight/inertia is also a part of the equation that will make me decide.

    Thanks alot.

19. Tristan on 09 Jan 2010 at 8:50 am #

    Hi Dominique

    Sorry for the slow reply – I was on holiday for a few days.

    I’ve found that the XR-270 and XR-300 have pretty similar stiffness – you won’t get a noticeably stiffer wheel by using one over the other. The XR-270 is a bit lighter and is ‘normal’ width at the brakepads which makes swapping wheels a bit easier so recently I’ve tended to suggest the XR-270 for most purposes.

    To answer your question the Competition spokes will have more of an effect on the stiffness than these two rims.

    Don’t forget that the hub also plays a role in stiffness! If you’re talking about using these spokes with the Ligero SLW hub then I’d suggest talking directly to Troy about what he would use. I know he has a new ver2 hub due out shortly so this might change his suggestions. Troy is very knowledgeable and won’t steer you in the wrong direction.

    Cheers,

    Tristan

20. AdamL on 09 Jul 2010 at 9:51 am #

    can anyone tell me on these rims(esp. the XR-270), do they have eyelets ? If so, how are they composed?

21. Tristan on 09 Jul 2010 at 1:35 pm #

    Hi Adam. None of the above rims have eyelets. Kinlin used to make a predecessor to the XR-200 with eyelets but these seemed to have disappeared in favour of the better XR-200.

22. Giovanni on 31 Jul 2010 at 3:36 am #

    You have a fantastic website with some amazing photographs. The subtle decals you put on your wheels are some of the best I’ve seen.

    What is your opinion on any aerodynamic advantage that the XR-270 & XR-300 have over the XR-200?

    For me, it’s a hard decisicion between these rims. Does the weight saving of the XR-200 outweigh the aero benefits of the other two?

    For criteriums & road racing, most time is spent in the pack. But will the aero benefits be very helpful in a sprint or on a flyer break away?

    How will the extra 100+ grams effect me if I chose the deeper rims?

23. Cédric Lemaître on 31 Jul 2010 at 8:46 am #

    Hi Tristan,

    Did you observe a huge variation of ERD of TB-25?

    At the begin of the year, I had 588mm and now all received rims are near 591-592.

    ++
    Cédric

24. Tristan on 31 Jul 2010 at 8:55 am #

    Hi Cedric

    I haven’t used many of the TB-25 tubular rims but the ERD of the ones I’ve had (at the beginning of the year) was around 590-591.

25. Tristan on 31 Jul 2010 at 7:55 pm #

    Hi Giovanni. You don’t say your weight which is the most important factor in selecting a rim. Personally (at 74kg) I find the XR-270 to ride much nicer than the XR-200 – it’s stiffer and holds a bit more momentum either due to the higher weight or better aero.

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